Poor Logic

When it comes to figuring out the logic of some believers, do you ever feel like you’re watching a dog chasing its tail?

In my city, we get these magazines called “Living” in our mailboxes every month. It doesn’t matter if you call and ask them not to waste paper and postage, the company continues to send them regardless. I’ve given up and just resigned myself to flipping through the “magazine” (it’s rather more of a mailbox infomercial) to get an idea of what this publisher thinks people in their target market are like.

Every month, without fail, they have a piece on god, usually written by one of the editors. April’s magazine talked about the miniseries “The Bible.” The author, Michelle Wallace, writes this:

Now a word to the skeptics of God’s story. You say, “Parting of seas, men swallowed by a giant fish who lived to tell about it. And the craziest of all, God becoming a man, dying and defeating death so that I could live forever in a place where no sin or suffering will be allowed!” Through the years I’ve tried to logically reason it out, but it always comes down to faith, and honestly, I can’t think of a better plan. I’m a sinner, in need of a savior. And, God doesn’t override my will; He gives me the freedom to choose.

Here’s the thing, if your god is unable to bring the literal parting of the Red Sea. If this doesn’t fit into a logical and reasonable realm of possibility, so you dismiss it offhand, then your god is too small. He’s not the God of the Bible. And, the god who can be contained within my limited and reasonable capacity, is not a god big enough for me.

Let me recap what the author said in the first paragraph: I’ve tried to understand these outrageous Bible stories. Gee, I just can’t–they don’t really make sense. But I believe anyway!!! I’m a naughty, sinful girl, and I need someone to save me.

And her “plan” to reason things out is faith. Faith is not a plan. Faith means you close your eyes and jump. There is no plan to it. She tried to understand, but couldn’t, so what the hell, she’s a believer! Now I know why people make stupid investment choices. I know why they give their money to shysters who call over the phone promising huge returns. I know why they buy swampland.

Remember the writer is supposed to be swaying doubters. In the second paragraph, she says that she doesn’t want a God she can understand.  (Huh?) “And, the god who can be contained within my limited and reasonable capacity, is not a god big enough for me.”  These two paragraphs are full of contradictions. If your god is so complex that you can’t figure out how he parted the seas, if you cannot, by your own admission, understand him, how can you know the mind of god? How do you know he’s giving you the freedom to choose? How do you know he’s not “overriding your will?” Maybe I’m missing something: how can some folks speak on god’s behalf and claim to know his will, when they also say he is too complex to understand?

This is all terrible logic. The only thing I hear besides me, me, me is dumb and dumber. Can you imagine turning in a paper to your science professor that says, “I don’t understand how the human heart works, but I’m a believer that it works!” Give me an A and send me on to the next class!

Seems to me that what this author really wants is a fantasy. A fairy-tale. A complex, super-human version of man and a happy ending. Some one to save her from herself. May I suggest she start with Fifty Shades of Gray?

I’m sure glad this writer is not teaching my kids or making my laws. But you and I know that she is teaching her kids and she is voting in our leaders, and for every one of her, there are 10 more teaching in the schools or making our laws. These folks are either limited in their reasoning abilities or just flat-out crazy. I think it’s the former.

That’s why I sometimes feel as if we’re watching dogs chase their tails.

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40 responses to “Poor Logic

  1. This is all terrible logic.

    It isn’t really logic. It is marketing spiel, directed toward the gullible.

  2. I am always fascinated by the people who do horrible things, or are themselves horrible people, then (supposedly) get touched by Jeeeesus! and become blind believers. They subscribe to the most fundamental beliefs and won’t even entertain the possibility of intellectual discussion as if any hint of doubt on their part would unravel the whole tapestry that they hide behind. It reminds me so much of Linus from “It’s the Great Pumpkin Charlie Brown”. If even the slightest doubt unravels your belief, then you must ask yourself if you truly believe or are you lying to yourself.

  3. “God is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance.” – Neil deGrasse Tyson

  4. Our family loves this magazine as well. Every time I get it in the mail, I wonder, how can a magazine that is supposed to promote the lives of all who live here is basically assuming that every citizen of this city is a christian. Many things about this city defy logic. But many of their target audience are teaching in our schools.

    • @Amy B Yes–scary that those who think like this teach our kids…I’ve encountered that before here.

      I checked out the magazine’s website under “Fruit of the Vine,” and I did a lot of face palming.

  5. Thanks!

    Glad I’m not the only person who felt this way!

  6. The one that has been baffling me lately… Is it “Gods will”, or is it “free will”… because… it seems to be whichever is most convenient at the moment. If something bad happens, or something is totally out of our control, it was the Will of God… yet if someone makes an awesome decision and something goes amazingly right… then it was free will that let him/her make that awesome decision. Rather convenient, if you ask me.

    • @Shanan Winters Yes, I agree: “Is it “Gods will”, or is it “free will”… because… it seems to be whichever is most convenient at the moment.”

  7. Their beliefs are suspended by a thread and they guard that thread closely! I wanted to email this little story to you, but I can’t find it posted on your blog. Yesterday I stopped by a restaurant on my return from a weekend camping trip with a platonic friend and his children. An older, very kind, couple came in shortly after us and the gentleman was facing me from their table. After about 15 minutes, he started talking to me, very kindly, saying things like “You are just beautiful, the way you are interacting with these children, you have a beautiful family, I can tell you have a beautiful soul, and I can just tell that you have a close relationship with God.” A part of me just wanted to let him go on believing his fantasy, that I was exactly what he wanted me to be. But I actually thought of you and your blog when I replied, because I want people to know that you don’t have to believe in supernatural beings or biblical fairy tales to be good, happy, or beautiful. They were an extremely nice couple and I talked to them for about 30 minutes but I told him flat out that no these were not all my children, the gentleman I was with was just a friend, and that I did not have a relationship with his god. I told him that I love the earth, the creatures on it, and I like to think that I make it a better place, but that I don’t believe in the stories of religions. The poor guy was stumbling to recover from that, and continued to press, saying, “You don’t believe in the devil?” as if that couldn’t possibly be true. It’s unfortunate that I could not make his day, but I feel proud about shaking his view of the world, and reassuring him that maybe not every atheist is a bitter and miserable person who isn’t doing the world any good. I continued to talk to them and found out they were married 46 years ago, they are from South Africa (they had the accents to go with it), and they had been in DFW for about 15 years. They asked if they could take me to lunch sometime and I almost agreed up until the point where they said that God spoke to them that morning and told them what restaurant to go to, what to order, and where they would be sitting, and they believed it was to meet me. As moving as it is to hear such nice compliments from complete strangers, there was crazy written all over it.

    • @crystalintexas Thanks for sharing that story. I get what you’re saying–you see this nice, elderly couple, and they’re all sweet, and you hate to yank them out of their god-dream. I love old people because they are low on all the hormones that can make us crazy, and they just seem so nice and content with the world.

      I’m impressed that you shared your views with them–sometimes, it feels so awkward. I think when we take these small steps it really does help free all of us though….So a big thanks from me for stepping out. You’re probably thinking that you didn’t make a difference because that couple truly believed god sent them on a mission, but you’ll always stick in their memories as a beautiful, sweet woman who was kind and loving to the people around her–even them. 🙂

  8. @ Shanan You are correct. It’s god’s will if it’s a bad outcome or out of your control. It’s free will if you’re being “holier than thou” and criticizing another’s beliefs or values.

  9. @crystalintexas…good judgement with not meeting up for a lunch date. After these people would have mentioned that God guided them to that particular restaurant and it was fate bringing you together, I would have declined too. These type of people remind me of the Kooks in a good movie called “Red State”. You should check it out if you haven’t seen it already.

  10. “10 more teaching in our schools and making our laws….?” Where I live it’s more like 1,000. Or more. I’m a very passive atheist. I guess I’m a big coward. I have so many people in my life that I love, people I’m extremely close to, people I wouldn’t dream of “hurting,” especially by exposing my lack of belief in any kind of god. Announcing my lack of belief would (at least to me) be disrespectful. My family and loved ones are all christians. I hesitate to “offend” them by disclosing my own, very personal, beliefs that do not include their god, or any god of any kind.

    @Dam – I love reading your articles and I’d be very interested in hearing your thoughts about what (more like how) to tell the people we love that we do not believe in god. If you wrote such an article, it would provoke thoughtful comments and opinions from others that I’m sure I would greatly benefit from. I should be able to state my beliefs, or lack thereof, to those in my life whom I greatly respect without any negative confrontation.

    • @Shelley. I actually do have something I wrote on that topic. Let me dig it up, and I’ll post it tomorrow….

      I think we all understand the dilemma you’re in, not wanting to hurt those you love. We’ll talk more in about this soon….

  11. This is not poor logic, it is not logic at all.

  12. @Shelley, I’m so sorry that you have to hide your beliefs from your closest friends and family. It seems so ridiculous that we have to hide this part of ourselves. Hopefully you’ll get some answers here and find a way to tell them.

    I recently had an acquaintance suggest meeting for dinner since we are both liberals (in a very red state), & I mentioned how in addition to bring liberal, I’m also agnostic, making me feel even more isolated. I hope she has just been busy, but I haven’t heard back yet. I’m afraid I scared her off and I shouldn’t have confessed to this so soon. Again, I’ll say it’s ridiculous that we have to let people assume we’re religious just so we don’t offend or upset them.

    Oh, and trying to find logic in religion just makes my head hurt.

  13. It is nothing short of amazing what kind of mental somersaults the religiosos have to do. If they could just hear themselves…
    Like this poor soul 😉 – in her mind the lack of any logic is the core of her…logic.

    We could do and be so much more if we only started to trust in each other and act accordingly instead of seeking comfort from bronze-age mythology.

  14. Your blog puts me back in my comfy place. Like a deep, satisfying sigh, sitting in front of the fire with a nice glass of wine. I just have had a horrible row with a close friend, apparently over my disregard for her beliefs. Reading your posts calms my mind again, and reminds me that not everyone out there is bat-shit crazy. For that, I thank you!

    • @Judi Thanks, Judy. That’s nice….It’s comforting for me, too, to know there are others out there! Sorry to hear you had a row with your friend. Are you guys still friends?

  15. Thanks for your concern! I’m not sure if this is something my friend can get past. Apparently I’ve just been trampling on her faith left and right because I don’t believe that prayer is a solution to anything. Funny how it’s the atheist that has to be forgiving. 😦

  16. I agree about this being a comfy place. I have to attend a wedding at an evangelical church in August and I think I’ll have this blog pulled up on my phone so I have something to distract me from the ceremony. Otherwise, my husband will have deep fingernail marks in his thigh that will likely be bleeding. I’m worried we’ll have to sit in the front row since our kids are in the wedding party, which means my husband and I won’t be able to trade snarky remarks and snickers.

    I’ve skipped graduations from christian schools and baptisms involving this side of the family, but I don’t think I can get out of this wedding. Help …

    • @Chimay LOL. I (WE!) feel for you….Aren’t you lucky to have a spouse who’s on board with you? Makes things soooo much better! You can vent here any time!

  17. The author wants an ideal to believe in that represents something not only greater than her in scope and capability, but in love and forgiveness as well. It’s human nature to not only desire stuff like that, but to see it in everyday life as a result of our innate ability to find patterns in everything … even when they’re not there.

    If she can’t think of a better plan in life than considering faith some kind of virtue and then putting it all in a 2,000 year old holy book, then she’s not even trying. (I have to be fair, though, that in some parts of the country the religious indoctrination is so strong that any other path might be next to impossible for some people.) Even to the skeptics she speaks from the perspective of one believer addressing another. I honestly don’t even know if she could wrap her head around the possiblity that some people read these stories and interpret them as nothing more than the mythology that it truly is.

  18. @Chimay
    Weddings and funerals are the only thing that can get me into a church, apart from a few concerts that an orchestra I play in decides to have in a church.
    When I’m in church I don’t show that I am an atheist.
    I’m not saying the prayers, I do not sing the hymns, I just stand up when others stands up and I look at the program or else when the congregation prays. Physically I attend, but I don’t participate in mind. This works just fine for me.
    If I think “yeah – holy bullshit!” with the priests prayer, it doesn’t matter as long as I don’t say it loud… 🙂

    The last six months I’ve had to attend two christian funerals, my moms and my grandmas. I had no problem being an atheist and to participate with non-christian music in both funerals. It worked just fine. If they or my family had asked me to play a christian hymn in their funerals, I had not had trouble doing it. Christian music means nothing more to me than other music as long as I can skip singing.

  19. @dam, I agree with you that the logic presented in what you quoted is terrible. Making matters worse, the text is deeply coded “Christian speak” that is not very helpful for insiders or outsiders. The bit about “small gods” in the second paragraph is not described in the bible.

    Not all Agnostics are as well-spoken and clear minded as you are about your beliefs but that fact does not diminish the quality of your thought processes or the basis for your beliefs. There are far better arguments for Christianity than those presented in the article that you quote; otherwise, I would not believe.

  20. @ jp If you would be so kind to provide us with “better arguments for Christianity,” I would be very interested to hear them.

    Now, mind you, we’re talking about arguments here, logical arguments. No platitudes or creeds or false arguments like those from authority–it’s in the bible, so it has to be true–or appeal to fear or consequence–if you don’t believe, you’ll go to hell–or appeals to ignorance–god is so beyond our understanding that we just have to have faith.

    Kindly provide LOGICAL arguments, and I thank you for your time and effort.

  21. @Shelley and @dam, I’m also interested in hearing how other people inform their families of their non-belief. My husband and I admitted to each other a couple years ago that we do not believe. However, out of respect for our families, his mother and my grandmother, mostly, we keep our beliefs hidden. However, we have a child now that we’re not teaching any religion to and that fact will show itself sooner than later. How did you all deal with the family issues that arise at the holidays where religion is expected? Thank you for your time.

    • @BSG Hi. How old is your child now?

      I’ve always told my kids that we are respectful of other’s beliefs and customs. So when we’d go to my grandmother’s house and say a prayer before eating, we’d just bow our heads and remain silent. We didn’t say “amen” or anything of that nature. I tell them–it doesn’t harm us or affect us in anyway to do these things. At our house, however, we do not pray. I have had guests request a “blessing” before a meal, and I tell them we are agnostic, but they are welcome to say a prayer or we can all express our gratitude in some way (my kids and I used to do this for many years, and sometimes still do if we remember and if we’re all eating together). “I’m thankful/grateful for my health, my brother, my dog, for this food….” Things like that.

      We’ve also attended church with family (not just my mother), and I’ve found it very educational for my kids. It’s a good thing for them to experience this slice of Americana. I get to talk to them about why religions do certain things, and we talk about the sermons. We also talk about the discrepancies of what we see in church versus what people are like when they leave. And I’ve asked them a lot “does that make sense” (the different stories/ideas they hear about in church). Trust me, with you leading the way, your child will not be brainwashed by religion.

      Christmas and Easter are not solely xtian holidays. They are also secular holidays. (Hell, xtians don’t even know the exact date Jesus was born or died. And so they just adopted Pagan celebrations and renamed them xtian.) However, we do live in a predominantly xtian culture, and I feel (though not everyone agrees) that we should be cordial to each other. On the other hand, we can still have good boundaries. If you’ve been to church with your mom on Christmas and she wants to go again on Sunday, I don’t think you should feel obligated to go. Your mom had a chance to raise you as she wanted, and you should have the chance to raise your child as you would like. The fact that you’re writing and concerned shows that you care about your mom’s feelings. Just because you are not a believer does not make you any less loving, caring or concerned.

      Please feel free to write or share your experiences any time. I hope our kids will not have these struggles when they have children of their own.

      If any other parents have suggestions for BSG, please comment…

  22. I don’t think I would label Christmas a Pagan celebration since the biblical story of Jesus (Yesua/Joshua/) appears to be a re-telling of the life of Mithra (Mithras/Mitra/Mitu/Itu) who was born in the Cave on December, etc. It’s actually a celebration of the longest night of the year (Shab-e Yaldah, in Farsi/Persian). The word ‘christ’ means messiah and was called Saoshyant in the writings of Zarathustra/Zoroaster. Most of the ideas found in the Middle East’s three mono-theistic religions are based on his works. Even the idea of a virgin birth can be found there but in his version a virgin became pregnant when she swam in a lake that contained then ‘seed’ of Ahura Mazda. Apparently he was smart enough to know that you can’t have a male child without a Y chromosome.

  23. @deosullivan3, sorry for my slow response, it has been a very busy work week. To keep the response shorter, I will sidestep repetition of the interesting but sometimes esoteric “logic arms race” for and against Christianity that is already widely discussed here and elsewhere. I have been a Christian for about 40 years now with a notable break somewhere in the middle where I sharply challenged the logical consistency of Christian theology, the theories of origins, the accuracy of biblical texts and the harmony of biblical accounts with science. At the end of all of the debates and study, I was able to find ample intellectual breathing space to believe.

    Many here have presented their reasons for disbelief – the presence of evil in this world, immorality and illogic in the church, hypocrisy among the religious, etc… Since you asked, here are some of my logical sticking points for why I struggle to disbelieve.

    The apparent order of the universe and its governing principles points to an external creative input of some form. Concerning the origins of life, I find it difficult to accept that once upon a time, the complex chemical, electrical and electromechanical systems of life somehow self-organized, self-sustained and explosively diversified. I am not appealing to ignorance here but rather to relative implausibility of what we see happening entirely by chance.

    Although much has been written on the topic, our moral nature points me to the existence of a higher standard by which we measure good and evil. Some have said that the human brain is designed to support and nurture belief. Did the human brain develop this capacity due to evolutionary forces or was it designed that way? I subscribe to the latter.

    I find Jesus Christ compelling – his life, his teaching, the testimony of those who knew him and the power he apparently had and still has to changes lives. Why Jesus? Why then? Why does it still matter? Something powerful happened two thousand years ago that transformed a small marginalized group into something enduring that we still debate today.

    Lastly, my rationale to believe is rooted in my experience. Something changed in me when I came to faith as a child and again when I returned to faith about 20 years afterwards. You can call this what you prefer ranging from Christian conversion to delusion. Whatever it is, it works for me and I have seen it work for others. There is a joy that I experience as a believer and see in others who believe that I interpret as the presence of God. It is on the basis of these experiences that I believe.

    • @jp Of course you know that I’ll say I respect your right to believe. If it gives you comfort, hope, explanations, then that is good for you. It is not what I believe, and not how I want to raise my kids. The reasons why I don’t believe are NOT because of “the presence of evil in this world, immorality and illogic in the church, hypocrisy among the religious.” If there were a god, he could be separate from all this.

      Thanks for sharing your views.

  24. @jp Thanks for your response. Here are a few thoughts on your thoughts:

    1. “The apparent order of the universe and its governing principles points to an external creative input of some form.”

    Why? Where? Why is there something rather than nothing, is that your question? Because the universe is the way it is, we are here. We are here so we wonder about the nature of the universe. If it were otherwise, we wouldn’t be here. Those are simple facts. They don’t require any external creative input. I can understand people might feel such awe before the universe that they might feel somewhat puny and afraid, and they might be tempted to put god there to assuage the fear, but there is no empirical need for god here.

    2. “[O]ur moral nature points me to the existence of a higher standard by which we measure good and evil. Some have said that the human brain is designed to support and nurture belief. Did the human brain develop this capacity due to evolutionary forces or was it designed that way? I subscribe to the latter.”

    I don’t see that mutually exclusive choice here, except perhaps if you mean by “design,” that some higher creative and intelligent spirit made it that way. There are many scientific studies that demonstrate basic morality in other animal species, especially primates (though also dolphins and elephants). It is likely that we did evolve our sense of right and wrong over millions of years. Sadly, we have not evolved far enough and things like 9/11 and the Boston bombings happen. I won’t comment on the role of religion in these events.

    3. “I find Jesus Christ compelling – his life, his teaching, the testimony of those who knew him and the power he apparently had and still has to changes lives.”

    I do, too, but because people have created a cult around this one man does not mean that any of it is true. The spread of Christianities (yes, plural) was due to many circumstances and events well beyond that the man himself might have said or done. But there are many parts of the Jesus story that point to other mythologies (see pir faqir’s comments on this). Rome adopted the Christian religion and then the Christians themselves co-opted many pagan rituals and memes to propagate the system. Christianity hasn’t survived intact as much as it morphed to fit new circumstances at every turn.

    Now, having said all this, you are, of course, entirely within your rights to believe in religion. I was a xtian for 40 years before realizing that religion was forcing me to live my life, my one and only life, in a way that was at odds with my intellect.

    I realized that I was born–or created, if you will–with certain abilities: I can reason, think, critique, scrutinize, ponder, and muse. Religion asks us to put aside those abilities and to believe in things that have no proof…and to make a donation in the process.

    It’s a con game. Plain and simple.

    So again, yes, if religion makes you feel good about yourself and you’re willing to pay the price for that feeling, then go right ahead. And I can certainly believe that you’re a good person deep down, despite our differences of opinion and belief.

    However, when believers start saying that health care shouldn’t cover birth control or homosexuals shouldn’t get married in civil ceremonies or prayer belongs in public school because the majority of Americans are xtian or we are a xtian nation in spite of what the establishment clause says… well, now we have a problem.

    So be well, and I’ll be reading you!

  25. @deosullivan3, I find it fascinating how people can look at the same data and draw very different conclusions – thanks for sharing yours. To clarify a few things, I am not so concerned with why the universe exists – I am with you, it exists. What I find curious is the extreme structure and complexity of certain things in the universe. Not to harp on a singular point but the origin of life amounts to spontaneous generation. Spontaneous generation makes no sense thermodynamically and fits no scientific observations that I am aware of. Strictly speaking, a naturalistic origin of life is mathematically possible; however, the compounding statistical probability of the long list of lucky occurrences that would have had to occur is so numerous and each are so individually improbable that it seems ridiculous to me that life happened by chance. I will concede that a creator God may not have been involved in the introduction of life to this planet but if not, we are left to believe that life was planted here from elsewhere. If we take the position that life was planted, we end back with the origins question again wherever life did come from. Beginnings are important and I, for one, enjoy thinking about how things came to be. Other viewpoints are certainly welcome.

    On morality – yes, the origins of our moral nature are murky. I won’t pick a fight on this one.

    Your comment on “Christianities” stings – fair assessment. I have done some reading on the mythologies pir faqir references. I am not sure what to make of the similarities. From what I have read, there has been quite a bit of borrowing and adaptation between belief systems over the years. I am quite sure that Christian practice has borrowed extensively over the years. The important question is this: did other faith systems in practice at the time of the writing of the individual Judeo-Christian texts that comprise the bible influence what was written or was it the other way around?

    Great talking with you.

  26. I keep reading over and over throughout this blog an assertion that there is absolutely no evidence of the existence of God and how illogical the belief in God is. The notion of God is a perfectly logical conclusion (and the only one by the way that I have heard so far) to the question of why anything exists, since there is nothing in this material world that is responsible for its own existence. If you deny God as the Creator, please explain then why (or even how) anything material exists. If you can, then I can see the logic in your belief that there may be no God because you have an alternative explanation. Or if you know of something material that truly is responsible for its own existence (something that was not caused to exist by anything else), please tell me what it is. I mean this sincerely. If you can’t then you need God (or something very much like what we call God) who is indeed responsible for His own existence; or perhaps more precisely, who is Existence. Without this Something, I fail to see how you can explain your own existence or the existence of anything at all. And what can be less logical than believing that things can pop into something from nothing. We truly have no evidence at this time that things can pop into existence from nothing. Thanks for considering my comments and questions.

    • @Don Well, Metron said pretty much everything most of us think.

      I don’t “deny God” so much as just don’t accept the myth. All evidence, for many of us, says that God is man-made.

      Believing in God means that you believe something came from nothing. Who made “God”? If you say, god always existed, you are right back to where we are, not knowing how something came into existence.

      As metron said, we don’t have the answers. That’s ok. We don’t have to make stuff up to make ourselves feel better. The God narrative doesn’t make sense.

  27. @Don:
    ” The notion of God is a perfectly logical conclusion ”

    No, it is not! It is completely illogical!

    ” If you deny God as the Creator, please explain then why (or even how) anything material exists.”

    Why are you believers not able to live with the knowledge that you don’t know the truth about our existence?
    Why do you have to put a fantasy figure in to “explain” everything you’re unable to answer? Why can’t believers say the truth like the rest of us; that you don’t know?

    As an atheist I have no trouble living with the fact that I don’t know why the universe exists, why the earth exists, why people and animals exists etc., and how it all came to be. I know that science has discovered a lot of facts, but they still don’t know all about our existence. And I feel just fine living with the knowledge that the science will probably not get all the answers before I die. I simply don’t need an explanation to comfort me and I don’t need to believe in something “bigger than me” to live a happy life!

    “If you can’t then you need God (or something very much like what we call God) who is indeed responsible for His own existence; or perhaps more precisely, who is Existence.”

    No, I don’t need any god. And here is something YOU can explain; where is your god? Show me your god! And show me your god without using the bible or any other “holy” book. And you must also explain where your god came from, who was the creator of your god? Because you can not say that “anything must have a creator” and then make exceptions for your particular god.
    And it is you who claim there is a god that has the burden of proof! The first thing you have to do is to prove that there is a god, then you have to prove that this god would be just YOUR god and not one of the thousands of other gods people believe in and have believed in for centuries.

    If you think that everything must have a creator, it only shows that you think in a typically human way. We know that people build things, so you automatically think that all things around us also must have a builder, a creator. But it does not need to be a builder, a creator, of the universe, the planets, the stars, the nature, the human beings etc.

    If your answer is “god is eternal and not created”, then why is the idea that everything around us, the universe, planets, earth, moons, stars, nature, animals, humans etc may be part of an eternal cycle, so strange to god-believers? It may indeed be that everything in the universe is part of a perpetual cycle and that there is no creator.

    I will strongly recommend you to watch all the episodes in this documentary: “How the Universe Works”
    Here is one of them:

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